référence : http://listes.cru.fr/arc/medievale/1998-03/msg00091.html
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Re: Robert of Geneva Daniel Williman



Chers collegues,

Les questions historiques ne peuvent pas toujours se soumettre aux
simplifications d'ordre ecclesiologique ou autrement theologique ou
politique comme "antipape".  C'est assez difficile retrouver les faits
d'une personnage des
chroniques et des sources d'archives; je laisse reveremment a part les
activites du
Saint-Esprit et les opinions curiales.  Salutati etait partisan et
publiciste; Temple-Leader, enthousiaste et imprecis lecteur. 
Je commend encore la notice du pere Dykmans, aussi ces ouvrages bien
fondees sur les sources:

Mirot, Le‚on.  "Silvestre Budes (13??-1380) et les Bretons en
Italie," Bibliotheque de l'Ecole des Chartes 58 (1897) 579-614;
59 (1898) 262-303.

Gayet, Louis.  Le grand schisme d'Occident ... 2 vols.
Florence, 1889.

Bueno de Mesquita, Daniel Meredith.  "Some Condottieri of the
Trecento" (Annual Italian Lecture of the British Academy, 1941)
in Proceedings of the British Academy 31 (1946). 

Valois, Noel.  La France et le Grand Schisme d'Occident.  4 vols.
Paris, 1896-1902.  

fidelement,  Daniel Williman

On Sat, 21 Mar 1998, Giulio Maffii wrote:

>  Dr. D.William,
> 
>  thanks for your message of Mar.18. 
> 
>  Dr Tomaso Vialardi di Sandigliano answering to my questions (Mar.16) wrote
> that Robert was "lame and squint-eyed". 
>  According to J.Temple-Leader and G.Marcotti (London 1889), Robert was "ugly
> and deformed in body" and add that "in character he could rank first amo,g
> those Avignonese bishops, who scandalized the world with injustice, simony,
> avarice, gluttony, lust, luxury, pride and all the cardinal vices; adding to
> these, as an especial characteristic, bestial ferocity, so much so, that
> catholic ecclesiastical history is pleased to be able to classify him
> amongst the antipopes"(pag.119). L.A.Muratori (Annali d'Italia - Milano,
> 1744) writes that " Roberto, Cardinale della basilica dei 12
> Apostoli...zoppicava d'un piede e maggiori vizi nascondeva nel petto".
> 	Temple-Leader writing about the Cesena slaughter, beside quoting Salutati,
> adds "...we may believe Poggio Bracciolini, the secretary of eight Popes,
> and we may trust the archbishop St.Antonino. The latter without reserve
> compares the Cardinal to Herod and Nero, and the Bolognese  chronicle says:
> People no longer believe either in the Pope or Cardinals, for these are
> things to crush one's faith."
> 	Cerainly Robert was not italian (although his name is in  the Dizionario
> Biografico degli Italiani) but I have got the impression that there is an
> apparent agreement to indicate him as the "antipope Clement VII".
> 	Regards.
> 	  Giulio Maffii.
> 
> ----------
> >From: Daniel Williman <danielw@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu>
> >To: "Liste de discussion sur l'occident medieval" <medievale@uqam.ca>
> >Subject: Re: Robert of Geneva
> >Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:46:34 -0500 (EST)
> >
> >Chers collegues,
> >
> >Permittez-moi repondre (sans accents, helas) aux questions de notre
> >collegue Giulio Maffii, chercheur des vestiges de John Hawkwood.
> >
> >On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Giulio Maffii wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Robert of Geneva became bishop of ThÈronanne in 1361 and archbishop of
> >> Cambrai in 1368. In 1371 he was made Cardinal and from 1376 to 1378 was
> in
> >> northern-Italy as papal "Legato". He organized the massacre of Cesena,
> where
> >> about 4000 people were killed. It is reported that he had some physical
> >> handicap. He was made Pope as Clemente VII by a number of Cardinals who
> met
> >> in the kingdom of Naples in sept.1378.
> >> I wonder if anyone out there in these lists have any records concerning
> the
> >> following question:
> >> a)- what physical impairement he had;
> >Je n'ai jamais ecoute d'aucun deficit physique.  Le
> >meilleur biographie, c'est Marc Dykmans, "Clemente VII, antipapa,"
> >Dizionario biographico degli Italiani 26 (Roma, 1982) 222-237.  Le pere
> >Dykmans, fier Urbaniste, le trouve antipape, mais Robert (a mon avis)
> >n'etait ni antipape ni italien.  Organizateur du massacre de Cesena? C'est
> >l'opinion de Coluccio Salutati.  Je crois qu'il n'etait que spectateur
> >approuvant.
> >John Hawkwood (recemment chef d'un massacre a Faenza) n'a permis a ses
> >troupes que le butin a Cesena.  Le massacre, c'etait l'oeuvre des Bretons
> >de Malestroit et Budes.
> >
> > > b)- had he followers in Italy after his election as Pope;
> >La quasi-totalite de la Cour papale et tous les cardinaux de Gregoire XI,
> >(sauf Tebaldeschi, deja mort), la
> >reine Jeanne de Naples, et ses soldats.  Il y a une histoire interessante:
> >Daniel Williman (votre rapporteur), "The Camerary and the Schism," Genese
> >et debuts du grand Schisme d'Occident (Paris, 1978).
> >
> >> c)- when and how he left to Avignon;
> >Apres le defait de ses troupes a Marino en Avril,
> >embarque le 27 mai 1379 sur la gallee de la reine a Naples, il s'est
> >rentre en Avignon le 20 juin.
> >
> >> d)- when the battle of Nocera was fuoght between troops of Naples and
> those
> >> of the Pope Urban VI (who had excommunicated Robert).
> >Les troupes de la reine ont assiege Urbain en Nocera, mais je ne connais
> >pas la date d'une battaille.
> >
> >amicalement,
> >
> >Daniel Williman
> >
> >
> >
> 
>